Loren's V8 S10

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Loren Williams
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Loren's V8 S10

Postby Loren » Fri May 12, 2017 9:53 pm

twistedwankel wrote:$300 is the new $30.
Truth!
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Postby Loren » Sat May 13, 2017 12:20 am

Okay, so while $300 is the new $30, I'm still one of those people with more time than money. And I'm cheap and creative. And thus...

My quick research of Accusump and other "oil accumulators" turned up some quick facts:

1. The Accusump is often used with a valve (manual or electric, and possibly switched by ignition switch or by oil pressure if electric). The valve allows the pressurized oil to be stored as the ignition is shut off, and then released into the engine when the ignition is turned on. Supposed to be good for eliminating "dry starts" and reducing start-up wear. Blah, blah, blah.
2. If a pressure switch is used, then the accumulator holds pressure until the engine oil pressure gets below a set point, and then it releases it. This isn't too different from how the Accusump works, anyway. Which is: it is pre-loaded with 7-10 (or more if you like) psi of air pressure. This is essentially your pressure set point. If there's more pressure than that in the engine, then the engine oil fills and pressurizes the Accusump.
3. Accusump is not the only game in town. Moroso and others make similar equipment.
4. The expensive kits (Accusump, or otherwise) keep the oil separated from the air by an internal piston and rubber seals. This is what allows them to be pressurized. To my way of thinking... this also makes them mechanical devices that can wear out. Meh.
5. (and finally getting to the point) Moroso makes This, which is a very simple variant of the accumulator concept, but without the moving parts. You can't pre-pressurize it, but for "casual use", it seems like it should be adequate for my purpose. I did some digging and found some of the Lemons racers have used them effectively. (e.g. blew two SBC engines due to oil starvation, then installed this and quit blowing engines)

Now. This 1.5 Quart Moroso Accumulator is basically an expensive inverted bottle that can hold 60-90 psi. $120 for an aluminum bottle with a fitting at one end and a Schrader valve at the other. (the valve lets you pump air into it to expunge the oil when you do an oil change)

I'm thinking an empty disposable propane tank (free) inverted with a fitting on the bottom end, and some kind of removable plug at the top would accomplish EXACTLY the same purpose for something closer to $20.

Tee it into the oil pressure port on the side of the block (or get a sandwich plate for the oil filter), and it will fill with oil (pressurizing the air and oil in the cylinder to match oil pressure). Oil level will have to be overfilled accordingly, of course. And when the oil pickup sucks air and oil pressure drops rapidly, the accumulator will provide a few seconds of oil pressure.

Given that I have a very repeatable problem. (even more repeatable if I'm not running extra oil in the crankcase) It should be a pretty cheap experiment, and easily verified.

As they say... "what could possibly go wrong?"
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Postby Loren » Sat May 13, 2017 12:28 am

Oh, I guess I didn't state this:

Most engines are started every day for 10-20 years without any startup wear issues. I'm not worried about "pre-lubing" my engine with an Accusump. Even if I spent the money for one, I'd run it without a valve. My purpose is eliminating oil pressure drops under hard braking.
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Postby twistedwankel » Sat May 13, 2017 12:42 pm

All newer rotary engines hold 6qts of oil but one can only change 4qts in the pan as 2 qts remain in the oil cooler system. Therefore, there is no need to ever drain your accumulator bottle as it will be self flushing? Don't you need a compressed air section like a well water tank bladder or a spring loaded piston to force the oil back into the engine? Otherwise you'll just get a little spurt.

Do you remember the old V8 Pontiac engines that only used 3.5qts so when one accelerated up a steep hill the oil light would come on meaning you were SOL. Had to do with the shallow oil pan. GM had to replace those oil pans and a few engines.

My C5 LS1 holds 6.5qts with a filter and came from the factory with Mobil 1 10W-30 printed on the fill cap.
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Postby Loren » Sun May 14, 2017 2:08 am

twistedwankel wrote:Therefore, there is no need to ever drain your accumulator bottle as it will be self flushing? Don't you need a compressed air section like a well water tank bladder or a spring loaded piston to force the oil back into the engine? Otherwise you'll just get a little spurt.
The one-piece accumulator must be mounted with the feed line down. That puts the air pocket at the top where it does act as an "air spring". It's not pre-pressurized, but the air is still there, and it will be compressed to the same pressure as the oil. Being much more compressible, probably 9/10 of the space in the accumulator will fill with oil. Will it come out at high pressure? Nah. But, SOME pressure is better than none. Figure if you're going from a high-RPM 60 psi to zero... there's 60 psi in that accumulator. It won't do as much if you were at cruising RPM with 30 psi in the accumulator... but, it would still give you a few seconds of maybe 30-5 psi. Certainly can't hurt.

I really need to clean out my garage so that I can start on this project.
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Postby twistedwankel » Tue May 16, 2017 4:47 pm

Hmmm. So how long for the pump to fill the bottle before the oil can go thru the engine after startup? My cold oil is higher pressure than my hot oil. I think size matters.

We could all use such a device for autocross with all the sloshing of oil so it will make a great shade tree mechanic story. Maybe just having a proper orifice would split the flow?
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Postby CaptainSquirts » Tue May 16, 2017 5:40 pm

twistedwankel wrote:My cold oil is higher pressure than my hot oil.
I'm pretty sure all cold oil pressure is higher than hot.

Does adding more oil help with sloshing in the pan?
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Postby twistedwankel » Tue May 16, 2017 7:56 pm

CaptainSquirts wrote:Does adding more oil help with sloshing in the pan?
Since the oil is added on the discharge side of the pump...yes, it will stabilize the engine side pressure if the pump suction cavitates due to sloshing.
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Postby twistedwankel » Thu May 25, 2017 2:08 pm

You really got me thinking about this for the LS1 engine so I had to satisfy my brain. There is obviously an issue with the pump being attached to the crank and spinning twice as fast as the old ones driven by the cam causing oil whipping. So both the c5 and f body used a baffle to control that and (g force wall climbing) and there is a sort of dam in the front of the pan to keep the oil from rushing forward. So I'm not going to worry about it in my C5 vette which holds 6.5qts and is somewhat different than the one for the f body which visibly holds much less.

I was also unaware that Melling changed the O-ring on the oil pickup to avoid losing suction/prime and thus psi. Also - since I've never had one apart - it is critical that the oil pump be centered within .0025" all around to be effective after installation. The stock pump puts out 3gal/min at idle and 6gal/min at 6000rpm. The two shelf oil cans I looked at held 1.5qt and 3qt, were air/ piston driven as mounted sideways, if a race car only it had a manual open/close valve, if used with a turbo had no valve at all. The oil weight is critical depending on the build/clearances of the engine. Tight 0-20W and loose up to 50W. So my 10-30W factory spec sounds middle of the road and I won't mess with that.

Guess you can tell I'm unemployed:) Thanks for the stimulus.

My new initials for Direct Injection Engines is "DIE". I read about the Ford ST modified turbo car overboosted if one stands on the gas in 5th or 6th gear they will probably blow the engine due to the flood of gas in slomo. Yikes. Also the intake valves never get washed off with fuel and carbon up. Yikes. Found this unrelated info in my researching.
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Postby Loren » Thu May 25, 2017 2:55 pm

Look at all that fancy aluminum! Yeah, the S10 probably has a Chevy 1500 pickup oil pan. That's the one they recommend when doing the Vortec V8 swap. Probably doesn't have much in the way of baffling. And none of the guides on doing this swap say anything about changing the oil pick-up to match the pan. They're all about "making it fit". So, I've probably got the pickup that came with the engine, which I believe was out of a 1998 Suburban 2500.

Remember, this swap was done about 12 years ago. At that point in time, a couple of things were true:
1) The V8 and V6 Vortec engines were nearly identical except for the two extra cylinders. All of the accessories, fuel system, ignition system, wiring, ECU... all the same. So, to do this swap on an S10 was VERY easy. Add two fuel injector wires to the harness, extend a couple other wires, reflash the ECU, and bolt it in. Probably the easiest V8 swap you could ever do.
2) V8 Vortecs were plentiful and cheap. They were in about 97-2002 GM trucks, Suburbans, Vans, etc... and those vehicles were at the 10 year mark. All over the salvage yards, ripe for the picking.
3) LS engines were NOT cheap and plentiful at the time. The LS-swap craze had not yet begun.

So, this is an "L31" Vortec 350. Out of a Surburban. Last iteration of the traditional cast-iron old-school 350. Bored and stroked to 383. Just plain old-school easy, out with the 4.3, in with the 6.2, no replacement for displacement, big torque engine swap.

It ain't no Corvette engine, but it moves the truck along smartly.

The engine was professionally built, and I have the build sheet. Lots of clearancing for the crank throws, and for valve lift. I know the bottom end is .030 over with a 383 stroker kit. I don't know exactly what cam is in it. And it is supposedly balanced to spin up to 7,000 rpm. (which would be a lot for that much rotating mass!) But, the stock ECU won't let it go past 5600.

Fun stuff: I played with some 0-60 runs last week. With an awful launch (because first gear is tall with the 3.08 diff, and the engine isn't tuned well just off-idle), a slow shift to 2nd (because it's a truck transmission, and the synchros are shot), and barely reaching 60 in 2nd (and it stumbles right at the top because it's running out of fuel)... my best 0-60 was a pathetic 8.3 seconds. But, half a second for the launch, and a second for the shift, plus another half second for proper engine tuning... would put it in the low 6's. Which is about what it "feels" like. So, there's plenty of potential there.

I also got about 9.4 with a boggy 2nd gear start (no shift), and about the same with a short shift to 3rd rather than 2nd. Engine says, "I got the torques, put me in a gear, I'll accelerate!"
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Postby twistedwankel » Thu May 25, 2017 9:40 pm

My wife's Auto with a 3:09ish out launched my 3.42 diff stick because of the torque converter multiplying the shit out of the torque!! OMG. I called it: "whiplash" and it did 57mph in first gear. You'll work it all out!! It's a cool looking truck, btw. Needs a monogram "hauls ass - among other things" on the backend.
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Postby Tim_M » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:19 pm

Curious if the engine mounts are OEM or a swap kit?

Sliding a car trans under it will likely change its demeanor...maybe a T5.

Chevrolet also offered a performance truck...ZQ8 or something like that. It actually was well received.
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Postby Loren » Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:48 pm

I believe it has 2.8 V6 style engine mounts. They are popular for swaps, I don't remember why. Something about their design vs. the 4.3 mounts. Custom brackets between the mounts and the engine block, though.

Yeah, I'm sure a transmission upgrade would be a good thing.

The ZQ8 was the "S10 Xtreme" package. It was just suspension and steering components. Quicker ratio steering box, springs, big front bar, added rear bar, and Bilstein shocks.

I replaced my steering box with what what was supposed to be the same box used in the ZQ8. But, It was a remanufactured unit, and I'm pretty sure it ended up being the same ratio that I started with. Would LOVE a quicker ratio!

But, it's all money that I'm not ready to invest. Someday, maybe I'll commit to it.
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Postby jmdoc66 » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:08 am

I had a couple ZQ8 S-10s. Basically lowered an inch or two, bigger tires and a couple other suspension mods. I miss my S10s.
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Postby Loren » Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:38 am

My biggest complaints with my S10:
AC doesn't work
Transmission doesn't like quick shifts (needs synchros)
Steering ratio isn't sharp enough

Otherwise, It's a fantastic compromise vehicle for me! I like the size of it. It has good power. It handles well. I can haul stuff when I need to. And it can tow the FAST trailer with ease.
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Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Postby Loren » Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:33 pm

And now the water pump is leaking. Always something.
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Postby Loren » Wed Jul 05, 2017 2:35 am

Waterpump is on order. Joe Brannon is gonna replace it for me. :notworthy:

While he's got the truck, he's going to do some of the preliminary wiring for my Microsquirt installation. So, I just ordered some connectors and supplies... and... I ordered the Microsquirt!

It's possible that I could have that all together and be tuning by the end of the month!
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Postby Native » Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:56 am

That's great! Reliability and more powah... good stuff!
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Postby Loren » Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:53 pm

The S10 is back from "the shop". (Joe's garage) Waterpump is done. 95% of the Megasquirt wiring is done, and it's setup to be "swappable" between the stock ECU and the Megasquirt.

We've gotten as far as to verify that the MS is powering up and communicating with the tuning laptop, and we're seeing some sensor readings. But, there's either a wiring or configuration problem (I'm betting I have some settings wrong, but it's possible that I specified some incorrect wiring) that's not letting the RPM signal get through to the MS. Without that, no start.

I'll think on it a bit, double check my wiring logic, double check my settings and play with it some more when I get a chance. Meanwhile... the stock ECU is still plugged in, and it's running like normal!
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Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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Postby Tim_M » Fri Jul 21, 2017 5:39 pm

So where are the images of this thing?

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