Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Loren » Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:27 pm

Familiarity breeds contempt. Or something.

Sounds like you're continuing to make progress. It's just like developing software (or engineering ANYTHING). The Apha version is all sorts of buggy. Then you apply what you learned to make a better Beta version. And eventually, the 3rd or 10th revision starts getting pretty refined.
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:51 pm

20181202_140656-1.jpg
So I decided to keep autotuning. It keeps getting better with no enhancement. Still not good enough...but better.
Since Tgiving I've got over 3 hours just driving around running autotune.
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Loren » Sun Dec 02, 2018 10:59 pm

If you set the resistance to change to "hard" or "very hard", it will take longer to get each cell to go green, but you'll get a more accurate tune. (maybe you're already doing that)
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:54 am

It's been on "normal." The picture above took about an hour. But, I had planned to make the change you suggested, and will probably lock out the dark greens along the bottom. Those cells have thousands of hits.
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Thu Dec 27, 2018 6:42 pm

Over the past weeks, I've autotuned the heck out of it, and ended up with what must be a pretty good tune. I say that cuz without any enrichment settings, the thing was pretty darned driveable. Yeah, it still had the hesitation but far less intrusive and severe.

So, I started messing with the enrichments again, and had planned to get into the "enhanced acceleration enrichments" but really didn't want to (fairly complicated). So, instead I decided to fool with the settings that tell the computer how close to wide open a given throttle position is, as a percentage of wide open. I had set it to 100% - meaning to have the computer see WOT it had to actually be at 100% throttle - at any given rpm. Well, that has the effect of delaying the timing of the enrichment pulses (and I think the algorithm may also reduce the size of the pulses too, maybe). I was having a bog by simply touching the throttle - air in no gas - so by adding a bit of enrichment, and reducing the percentage setting from 100 to a range of 10 at low rpm and 40-50- at high rpm, throttle tip-in is now nice and smooth, and mild-to-mid speed throttle movements are also quite nice. So clutching off from a start, normal throttle transitions during shifts, even rev-matching all work pretty well right now.

I'm still chasing the hesitation at sudden full throttle inputs made after a full or near-full lift. Datalogs show the bog is because the enrichment is making it super rich (as opposed to lean). I'm pretty sure that if I continue to chase the proper %WOT setting for the TPS at X rpm, and reduce enrichment at higher throttle change speeds, that I'll get there.

I'm confident to say solid progress. And I still have a few holiday-days-off yet... :thumbwink:
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Loren » Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:13 pm

8-)

Way to go, Steve!
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Postby twistedwankel » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:11 pm

Native wrote:I'm confident to say solid progress. And I still have a few holiday-days-off yet...
I saw it leaving the parking lot yesterday. :thumbwink: Saw it 2 years ago under a tarp or something?
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Thu Dec 27, 2018 8:45 pm

twistedwankel wrote:Saw it 2 years ago under a tarp or something?
Lol. Over time it's been used as a shelf for a variety of items...
No more! I say...
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:56 am

Native wrote:I'm still chasing the hesitation at sudden full throttle inputs made after a full or near-full lift. Datalogs show the bog is because the enrichment is making it super rich (as opposed to lean). I'm pretty sure that if I continue to chase the proper %WOT setting for the TPS at X rpm, and reduce enrichment at higher throttle change speeds, that I'll get there.
So my last data log was from 12/31.
I jump-started the car this weekend, and did more of the above. My bog is now a mild hesitation, and moreso with part-throttle than full throttle and more at lower rpm, like 2k. And it's back to more of a lean spike. And at higher rpms, like 5k, throttle input feels good, but the data log still shows a lean spike.

I thought it might have to do, maybe, with my timing being too advanced, but I'm not so sure. I may still experiment.

Just chipping away at it. Slowly but surely. Mostly slowly...
I'm not even going to predict when I might have time to play again.

20190224_181943_resized.jpg
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Sat Mar 02, 2019 7:07 pm

So the latest is I've either discovered or developed a missing tpsdot reading above 3000 rpm or so. Which means no enrichment gets triggered. The datalog shows complete tps readings, but it's missing the rate of change needed. Intermittently. As if the software or sensor is reading the position of the throttle, but not how quickly it's changing.

As a work-around I've added a bit of MAPdot enrichment, which is indeed a work-around, but will probably work.

Time to hit the google.
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:53 pm

:bangwall:
:no:

Now it's just plain broke.
Here's what happened. Nice and cool out this morning, so I figured I'd take advantage of that and autotune the warmup enrichment. Rolled the car out, started it up, did the autotune. After, idle was a little lean, so I raised the fuel in that cell a point or two (somehting I've been meaning to do - nothing new here). All done. Saved the tune and turned it off. Two hours later it was time to actually drive it, and it won't start easily. Downright unwilling, but I did get it running. And it's bouncing all over like it's missing, the afr is 19-20 (so it probably is missing), and the tunerstudio tps guage is not as lively as it usually is (hmm). Turned it off, loaded an old tune and tried to restart it - does the same thing. Put the current tune back. Switched to open loop idle, cycled it off and on, same thing. Put it back to closed loop idle. This time, it idled smoothly. TPS guage is looking normal. Shut it off, and restarted it. Back to bouncing and now completely lean - pegged 21 on the gauge. So I unplugged the TPS sensor. Made no difference. Plugged it back in. That made the car stall, so I restarted it, still lean and missing, and limped it back into the garage. So, the motor will rev, sort of, but it's uneven/missing all the way.

I looked at a datalog, and compared it to an old one. Load and fuel pulsewidths are the same. So I'm thinking it's something under the hood, and at least once it was intermittent. Air/fuel/spark. It's not air. Did I lose a fuel injector? Pump? Fry a coil? Any suggestions to help me narrow this down would be great.
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Postby Loren » Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:14 pm

The good news is that it's becoming less intermittent, whatever it is. Easier to find a hard failure.

You're going to have to do some testing to see what's up. Could be any of the things you mentioned.

If it's not starting, start with the fuel pump. Is it running when it should be? (MS should probably have it priming when you turn it on, maybe shutting off after that, not sure) You can always jumper the fuel pump relay to test that the pump is working. (and you could have a bad FP relay)

If it's not the pump, check for spark. If you have NO spark, it's probably something like the crank position sensor or something else that would affect the firing of BOTH coils. If it's just one or two cylinders not firing, then it could be a coil or wiring.

Could maybe be related to TPS, or one of the silly neutral or clutch switches... but, with MS, you may not be using those switches, anyway.

Probably not an injector. The engine would fire up and run a little lumpy, but it wouldn't NOT start due to one bad injector.
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:11 pm

Well, the fuel pump whirs for a few secs with key on, then stops, which is what it has always done. So, safe to rule that out, yes?

Time to check spark I guess.
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Postby Loren » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:22 pm

Fuel pump could still be a problem, but if it's running that's a good sign. It's not stuck, and it's getting power. Could still have a break in the pickup hose, a clogged pickup sock, etc. But, none of that is terribly likely.
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Tune 'n' 'charge 'n' tune

Postby Native » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:50 pm

Yah, fuel clog/loss entered my mind. Probably easier to check spark than pull the fuel pump...less messy, anyway.
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Postby Native » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:10 pm

All four plugs have spark. Two of them, 1 and 3, are black and sooty like they've been run rich, and the spark isn't that great. The other two look normal.
Checked plug wires for resistance. All within range.
Checked coilpacks for resistance. All within range.
Checked fuel injectors for resistance (and broke two of the tabs...). All within range.
(the plugs and wires are 13 years old - 25000 miles - dang. Time to replace them).

Someone mentioned vacuum leak. The gauge I have shows steady vacuum, and reacts properly to throttle. It's no different than it's ever been. So, not a vacuum leak.

Again, it runs, but very poorly. It actually started while I was checking plugs, with one of the plugs out, which surprised me, and it idled the same bad way, like it didn't care the plug was missing. The AFR is very lean. It's almost as if the timing is way out of whack. Now I'm suspicious of the cam angle sensor (there is no crank sensor on this car - 1996 and on). Guess I'll read up on checking that next, unless anyone has a better idea.

And you need a special gadget to actually check a cas.
Anybody got one around I can borrow?
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Postby Loren » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm

Crank position is determined by the CAS on that vintage. You don't have a "crank position sensor", but the ECU magically works it out from the CAS. (It's sort of like AC and automatic transmissions... if I look at the pictures long enough, I can understand how it works, but I never remember the details)

Odds are, if you had a CAS problem, the MS would detect that as a "loss of synch". It may or may not run like that, but you'd have a "lost synch count" greater than zero, and you can look at that in the data logs.

None of your basic inputs look off? Air temp? Coolant temp?

Still not impossible for it to be a fuel pump problem. If it's not delivering sufficient pressure...
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Postby Native » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:53 pm

Ok so maybe not cas.
The gauge readings all looked ok, but I'll have another look.
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Postby Native » Sun Mar 31, 2019 4:26 pm

So just to shut my brain up, I replaced the spark plugs (old ones were old and two of them, 1 and 3, were really black. 2 and 4 looked normal grayish).
Of course, it still idles like shit, and is really lean, just like with the old plugs.
So, while it was idling, I started pulled plug wires - just one and replace it then try the next. When i pulled either cylinder 1 or 3, it died immediately.
When I pulled cylinder 2 or 4, nothing changed. It just continued it's shitty idle.
So, now I'm thinking I'm not getting combustion in those two cylinders, which suggests what?
So y'all check me on this: I think it rules out the fuel system, at least up to the injectors for those two cylinders. But, those two injectors had the same resistance as the others.
I already checked spark and all 4 plugs were making spark. And, when I pulled the wires on two and four, you could hear the rapid ticktick coming from the end of the spark plug wire as the coil was firing. And the coil halves control cylinders 1 and 4 on one side and 2 and 3 on the other.
What the hell?
I guess I'll mosey over to Harbor Freight and get the stuff I need to check fuel pressure, just to rule that out as discussed. But then what, start swapping injectors and see if the dead cylinders move?
Anyone have any thoughts?
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Postby Loren » Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:28 am

Native wrote:So, while it was idling, I started pulled plug wires - just one and replace it then try the next. When i pulled either cylinder 1 or 3, it died immediately. When I pulled cylinder 2 or 4, nothing changed.
Okay, good positive result. Better than intermittent result.

Clearly, cylinders 2 and 4 are not firing.
So, now I'm thinking I'm not getting combustion in those two cylinders, which suggests what?
Either no spark, no compression, or a mixture that won't ignite (too rich or too lean)
So y'all check me on this: I think it rules out the fuel system, at least up to the injectors for those two cylinders. But, those two injectors had the same resistance as the others.
Nooooot necessarily. You can have a good fuel injector and still have a problem. Is the injector connected to 12V supply on one side? Is the other side connected all the way back to the ECU to provide the ground path? Is the ECU output actually switching that ground to open the injector?

And then there's the mechanical problem possibility. Not likely that you're leaking fuel or having any kind of fuel pressure problem that would affect only two of four injectors, so we can ignore that. But, if you've got old fuel injector seals... especially on a car that has been allowed to "rest" for long periods of time, they can dry out, get hard and perhaps start leaking AIR between the injector and the head. It's effectively a vacuum leak. Unmetered air getting into the cylinder. Causes a lean condition. Hmmm? If you've never replaced your fuel injector seals, it's something to consider. You could test it with a can of ether (starting fluid) or anything that's highly flammable but not finicky about a specific mixture (carb or brake cleaner, maybe). If there's a leak, it will suck that in... and perhaps ignite it and you'll hear a difference in the idle.
I already checked spark and all 4 plugs were making spark. And, when I pulled the wires on two and four, you could hear the rapid ticktick coming from the end of the spark plug wire as the coil was firing. And the coil halves control cylinders 1 and 4 on one side and 2 and 3 on the other.
What the hell?
You're a whiz at this troubleshooting thing, and you don't even know it.

Okay, so you're getting spark on all four cylinders, AND your problem is not related to one specific coil. Seems a lot like NOT an ignition problem. With a wasted spark system, you're running on cylinders 1 and 3... which are on different coils... which means BOTH coils are firing.
I guess I'll mosey over to Harbor Freight and get the stuff I need to check fuel pressure, just to rule that out as discussed. But then what, start swapping injectors and see if the dead cylinders move?
Anyone have any thoughts?
You've got two cylinders firing and two not. That doesn't seem like a fuel pressure problem. That seems either electrical, or fuel injector seals allowing a vacuum leak on two cylinders.

Or... you've somehow lost compression on two cylinders.

The good news is that your troubleshooting is providing positive results. Just gotta keep working down the rabbit hole.

Fuel injector seals... hmmmm... (I've seen it happen)
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