Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Discuss past FAST events. How did it go?

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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Magooiii » Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:33 pm

PAX link fixed.


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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Carracer » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:36 am

CaptainSquirts wrote:
Native wrote:
Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:50 am
CaptainSquirts wrote: Philip read us your message. :rolling: ???
Welllll...he said it was your message...
Lol I say lots of things, so doesnt ring a bell.
I quoted the first line of the message you sent me after I told you that FTD was in the bag lol
Great run, you just out performed everyone!
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Philip - tell me it's in the tune... (::)
It's still the ohlins. They are just magic on the front axle. Still need to work on the rear.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby CaptainSquirts » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:21 am

Whew, I think that was one of the hardest courses for setup to setup the course ever, but good coordination and collaboration got it there! If you didn't walk the course at least twice(or have 6 tech runs :rolling:), you probably got lost :-D .

Constructive criticism part. I do believe on course that is more complex(basically has some overlapping) requires some sort of Chief course worker(sits by himself watching the whole course) that calls out for red flags. Doesn't mean course workers don't wave the flag unless the chief says so, but just for that extra assurance red flags come out sooner rather than later. When spotting for the camera man on course, said person at least yelled 4 times for a red flag before course workers did it. Some of those times, it was already too late since some cars got pretty damn close to each other. On pretty straight forward courses, not very needed.

Course itself, I felt some places were pretty hard to get the right line, but if you did, oh boy. The first left hand turn around, and the 2nd turn around that lead to the slaloms. First turn around was just trying to get a nice arc from the start of the turn around, all the way to the left hander right before the 2nd turn around. The 2nd turn around, it felt pretty hard to get as close to the cone at the end of the turn around that was before that little straight to the slaloms. I never managed to never get very close to it. To trigger at least one person, dare I say a 33 was out there :chuckle: .

Besides that, after 3 years I was able to finally get ahead of Mark H! Catching him was one of my biggest goals in Autocrossing for the longest time, it felt great :D .
Carracer wrote:
Great run, you just out performed everyone!
Thank you kind alien :notworthy: .
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby mymomswagon » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:35 am

If I had to do the course work all over again, I would have communicated more with other stations about territories, before we went hot.

From our vantage point in the center of the righty turnaround it made sense to me to watch the car come out of the start, once the previous car passed us, but doing so obscured view of developing issues in the last turnaround. Once noticed, it was too late to flag the new car that was heading towards the problem.

My guess is overlap courses have more things to be aware of. Will work on it.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Loren » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:57 pm

Yeah, it was a difficult course to work (and drive). And we dedicated 4 experienced people per run group to instruction. That left us with a bunch of 1st and 2nd time course workers, and some not-super-experienced corner captains.

But, we muddled through.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Bigdog » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:07 pm

Last run:
based on the speed trace it was my smoothest and destined to be the fastest. That is, until the radio miraculously turned on and this woman was singing in my ear became a little distracting. At least I managed not to toast the timing light. :blackeye:

https://youtu.be/UfbZhGDowVo
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Van48 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:14 pm

I was working as Starter, i yelled red flag a few times over radio and from my vantage point i could see the whole track - there were red flags being waved just not high like Steve demonstrates- if i recall it was the nardi gray ND and he just didnt see them. Other than that i thought it was a great course and everyone did a good job. It was well thought out for the small space the Lakeland provides. Unfortunately i will be out of town at work for the first points event at the end of this month. :bangwall:
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Native » Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:03 pm

CaptainSquirts wrote:(or have 6 tech runs ),
Indeed. Too bad I didn't do those tech runs in a car with a back seat... (but then your FTD would've only had a wider margin... :notworthy: )
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby AScoda » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:35 pm

Steve really only did one lap at speed. 1st lap he went off course, and the rest we only drove sections and then changed those sections. I wouldn't say he got usable practice.
CaptainSquirts wrote: I do believe on course that is more complex(basically has some overlapping) requires some sort of Chief course worker(sits by himself watching the whole course) that calls out for red flags.
We do that every event. Steve, Loren, and I typically have radios and are watching for stuff like that. The driver that drove past 5 red flags was very apologetic. He honestly did not see them. This is why flag holders have to be vigorous and energetic with the flags. Waving casually typically won't get seen quickly. Drivers are focusing on their line.
Loren wrote:Freakin' Drew and his freakin' Mustang. :no:
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Loren » Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:42 pm

AScoda wrote:This is why flag holders have to be vigorous and energetic with the flags. Waving casually typically won't get seen quickly. Drivers are focusing on their line.
This.

Fresh corner captains are often too timid about committing to their flag. Eventually, most of them get it. Takes time and sometimes some gentle persuasion (yelling) by those who know better.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby 280z-hab » Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:37 pm

Ahhh the course...first, I would like to thank FAST for putting on another excellent event! It ran on time, in a great venue, friendly people, awesome cars (such as the beautiful black MR2 with the perfect wheel choice), and the weather was sunny! Even the blueberry breakfast bars were yummy, especially mixed with a die Pepsi into a super-sweet slurry not found in nature.

I was disappointed in the course though. I had two DNFs and was frustrated trying to learn the course instead of trying to go faster on the course. Thanks to Andrew for the instruction and the guy in the white Subie for the ride-along, I started figuring it out but too late on run #3 of #4. My favorite part of the course for me was the finish line. After watching the #2 group I was surprised the safety steward didnt put a stop to having two cars on the course at once or lowering the runs to 3 after at least four red-flags I counted for lost folks almost colliding with not-lost folks or equally lost folks.

Course designers have done a great job at all of the other venues I have raced with FAST. Looking at Lakeland, there is a lot of potential for fun courses that dont have to be 20-second courses or overly complex. I am looking forward to see with what FAST comes up with for 9/28/19!
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Loren » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:01 pm

It's actually very hard to get a course over about 28 seconds at Lakeland, hence this course. It was an experiment, as each of our other Lakeland events have been. There's always a learning curve with a new site. We'll keep trying different things. Learning what works well, and what doesn't.

I'll confess that because this was a non points event, in my mind I was thinking "Classic event" and "experienced drivers", and designed a fairly complex and difficult course. But, it's wasn't a Classic. Way too many newbs for that course, and that caused a lot of problems both with drivers and course workers.

Live and learn.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby jbrannon7 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:07 pm

AScoda wrote:Steve really only did one lap at speed. 1st lap he went off course, and the rest we only drove sections and then changed those sections. I wouldn't say he got usable practice.
CaptainSquirts wrote: I do believe on course that is more complex(basically has some overlapping) requires some sort of Chief course worker(sits by himself watching the whole course) that calls out for red flags.
We do that every event. Steve, Loren, and I typically have radios and are watching for stuff like that. The driver that drove past 5 red flags was very apologetic. He honestly did not see them. This is why flag holders have to be vigorous and energetic with the flags. Waving casually typically won't get seen quickly. Drivers are focusing on their line.
Yelling "RED FLAG" helps also. Especially if Ron is yelling it.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Jamie » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:26 pm

Loren wrote:
AScoda wrote:This is why flag holders have to be vigorous and energetic with the flags. Waving casually typically won't get seen quickly. Drivers are focusing on their line.
This.

Fresh corner captains are often too timid about committing to their flag. Eventually, most of them get it. Takes time and sometimes some gentle persuasion (yelling) by those who know better.
#$%^& "gentle persuasion".

I was standing near the back of timing when this happened in the first afternoon run group, so I could see and hear everything pretty well. Flags might have been a little slow coming out, but the biggest problem was that no one -- NO ONE -- got serious with the flag. Each person holding a flag stood in place and flapped it around a little, then stopped when they thought the action had passed them, then flapped it around a little more because timing was yelling "red flag" on the radio, then stopped again....

Over the last year (at least...maybe longer), sloppy flagging has become normal, rather than something occasional when we're strapped for workers. That's in spite of the detailed instruction at the driver's meeting. We assume the people listed as corner captains are both willing and able to direct activity at that station, rather than just be one of the warm bodies standing there. I was curious enough to ask around a bit afterwards, and apparently, it's not unheard of for the corner captain to hand off the flag if they're not comfortable with it or just don't feel like doing that part of the job. So there's no guarantee that the flag is in the hands of someone experienced, or that they're being directed/told/coached or otherwise helped out by someone experienced.

Maybe we need to start cherry-picking corner captains for awhile, even if at the expense of a 1:1 instructor:newbie ratio. After the first run, that's often overkill anyhow, as not all the novices want the additional help. Pull some temporary instructor help for the first runs from "the management" and any other qualified bodies standing around, accept a bit of inefficiency as instructors jump in and out of cars on that first run, and fix the corner stations. If we don't, eventually something bad will happen. Hell...I'll volunteer to do the novice walk in my group, then take a newb or two and work a corner station rather than riding. I guarantee that if a car gets past me waving a red flag, it won't be because he didn't see me.

While I'm up on the horse...driver's meetings. Yes, sometimes something comes up that requires a few people to be doing something other than listening raptly to the script we've all heard before, but there's a growing clique that drifts off somewhere between the other side of the trailer and other side of the grid for social hour while Loren's reading. Suck it up, come stand with the group, and be a good example for those who don't have it memorized. Not to mention, some of you can use the remedial instruction on flagging....
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Native » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:27 pm

280z-hab wrote:I was disappointed in the course though. I had two DNFs and was frustrated trying to learn the course instead of trying to go faster on the course.
I suspect a lot of folks were in the same boat. In the afternoon, before the guided coursewalk, Jamie made an announcement to the effect that if you didn't have a lot of experience at venues other than Brooksville (airstrips) that you consider joining the walk. His point is absolutely correct - reading and driving a runway out-n-back is very different than driving a parking lot course such as Lakeland (and SPC back in the day). On a runway course, "look ahead" means just that. At Lakeland, "look ahead" might mean turning your head left or right. And it takes some practice to interpret the apexes in a parking lot vs a runway. The coursewalk(s) is (are) vital, and if there's still question, catching a ride before you drive can be a help too.

Nothing was wrong with the course. As has been said, it was complex. As we do more Lakeland events, everyone will get better at finding their way.
280z-hab wrote: I was surprised the safety steward didnt put a stop to having two cars on the course at once
We effectively did. We delayed the start until the on-course car cleared the last u-turn before the entry to the finish.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Native » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 pm

AScoda wrote:The driver that drove past 5 red flags was very apologetic. He honestly did not see them. This is why flag holders have to be vigorous and energetic with the flags. Waving casually typically won't get seen quickly. Drivers are focusing on their line.
I went off on my 3rd run - not lost, just overshot the right hander after the slalom. That red mist Loren talks about in the drivers' meetings took over, and I kept going thinking I could just get back on course. But I forgot we had closed the gap in the wall during setup. By that time I had driven all the way up the outside of the course to the southwest corner, and when I saw the coming car, I stopped. Ken was with me, and he had a radio with him, and I heard the radio call for red flag, but I never actually saw any flags (maybe the other driver got stopped). Shame on me for acting like a dipsh*t, but St. 3 shoulda stopped me and I was way past them before the radio call.

So, maybe all the DNFs and red flags weren't so much a course design issue, but rather a driver and courseworking issue... Both something we do our best to address via instruction, direction, careful as possible work assignments (which is one reason why sometimes last minute changes are not simple), and as much supervision as we can supply with as many eyes as we can spare.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby ImpostorDan » Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:39 pm

Random thoughts from the guy who... DNF'd two times, two ways, to my dismay.

The semi straight after the start - Yes, the big cone was good - but it would have clicked better as a big cone gate to trigger "aim here" thinking. The small cones on the outside just visually didn't work from my bathtub view.

Aside from that, the start to first turn was unnatural visually, but not driving wise - felt like I was sneaking through a cone wall for some reason.

Ultimately, I really liked the course - just could not compute on the first elements.
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby Loren » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:47 pm

Jamie's not wrong. Nor is Steve.

Okay, really, nothing anyone has said is wrong. And we are listening. And we were formulating ideas for action before we even left the event. :geek:
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby jev61 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:59 pm

Loren wrote:It's actually very hard to get a course over about 28 seconds at Lakeland, hence this course. It was an experiment, as each of our other Lakeland events have been. There's always a learning curve with a new site. We'll keep trying different things. Learning what works well, and what doesn't.

I'll confess that because this was a non points event, in my mind I was thinking "Classic event" and "experienced drivers", and designed a fairly complex and difficult course. But, it's wasn't a Classic. Way too many newbs for that course, and that caused a lot of problems both with drivers and course workers.

Live and learn.
I loved the course and want more like it!
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Sep 7 Pointless Lakeland event

Postby CaptainSquirts » Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:37 pm

jev61 wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:59 pm
Loren wrote:It's actually very hard to get a course over about 28 seconds at Lakeland, hence this course. It was an experiment, as each of our other Lakeland events have been. There's always a learning curve with a new site. We'll keep trying different things. Learning what works well, and what doesn't.

I'll confess that because this was a non points event, in my mind I was thinking "Classic event" and "experienced drivers", and designed a fairly complex and difficult course. But, it's wasn't a Classic. Way too many newbs for that course, and that caused a lot of problems both with drivers and course workers.

Live and learn.
I loved the course and want more like it!
+1

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