My autox car build plan

Post your questions or tips about wheels, tires, alignment, or anything related to preparing an autocross car here.

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Postby twistedwankel » Wed May 17, 2017 8:53 pm

I like that Bill still uses painter's tape for numbers. :thumbwink:
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Postby aw614 » Fri May 19, 2017 10:51 am

mymomswagon wrote:so far car is stable, need to find a really messed up road to test further....but it's so easy to change the front I may simply put it back between events.

thanks for the camber ideas. I believe the prev ttrs had ball joints that connected to slots on the control arm, but even if they fit, prices are comparable to the superpro arm. maybe something can be fabricated with the stock ball joint housing.

*****************

today, bought a used pair of koni yellows with mounting hardware to play with. Should be here next week.

Koni claims they must be removed from the car to adjust but I've got some ideas to test out, hopefully resulting in some reduced labor adjusting. Otherwise I'll find a compromise setting and leave them alone.Image

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3
koni can convert them to have an external adjuster, but you'll still have to remove them to adjust, but makes it easier than compresisng the shock in. It was pricey so I couldnt justify it b/c I rarely adjusted my shocks...
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Postby twistedwankel » Fri May 19, 2017 1:48 pm

Those rear koni's adjust the opposite direction of the fronts = bass ackwards. Gets confusing.
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Postby mymomswagon » Fri May 19, 2017 10:14 pm

aw614 wrote:
mymomswagon wrote:so far car is stable, need to find a really messed up road to test further....but it's so easy to change the front I may simply put it back between events.

thanks for the camber ideas. I believe the prev ttrs had ball joints that connected to slots on the control arm, but even if they fit, prices are comparable to the superpro arm. maybe something can be fabricated with the stock ball joint housing.

*****************

today, bought a used pair of koni yellows with mounting hardware to play with. Should be here next week.

Koni claims they must be removed from the car to adjust but I've got some ideas to test out, hopefully resulting in some reduced labor adjusting. Otherwise I'll find a compromise setting and leave them alone.Image

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3
koni can convert them to have an external adjuster, but you'll still have to remove them to adjust, but makes it easier than compresisng the shock in. It was pricey so I couldnt justify it b/c I rarely adjusted my shocks...
yeah these guys too...
https://propartsusa.com/pages/shock-services




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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:46 am

Camber world

Loren and others have suggested 'think about alignment'.

I've played with toe recently but confounded the variables with new tires, wider track up front, and very different F/R tire pressure (it was fun though).

My tires are suggesting I think more about camber.

Some previous suggestions on camber have me combing the vw forums to see what's out there.

Executive summary of my research is " leaning towards Vorshlag camber plates".

https://vorshlag-store.com/collections/ ... es-perches

I haven't owned Vorshlag, but once had ground control street plates and they had issues: spring bearing contamination, main bearing knocking sounds after six months, deformation of bushings etc. In the BMW forum world, vorshlag seems to be the gold standard for plates in terms of quality. I previously ruled out plates but now think they're the best bet for the job and perhaps Vorshlag quality will minimize NVH and maintenance.

Anyone have experience with them?

I also assume that stock rules allow me to go to -2 degrees (am I wrong?) and I don't think other solutions will take me there.

Other solutions:

Superpro makes aluminum control arms that add -0.5 degrees camber
and up to 2 degrees caster. They also claim "anti lift" characteristics and 44% weight reduction over stock steel arms. May be able to buy for as cheap as $550.

GTI Clubsport S spindles can add -1% to a GTI but I could be going down a rabbit hole as there would other parts to swap in addition to the spindles, for my stock Golf.

Slotting - examined my strut tower. Per pics, the tower is domed to accommodate a domed strut mount. Perhaps the mount can be cut but even then my guess is I can move the strut 1/4 - 3/8" inward which I don't think is going to net me that much. So, not real excited about this option.
ImageImage

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Postby Loren » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:06 am

The obvious question to ask before spending big bucks on modifying the suspension on a VW station wagon is... do you have the right car? If you need that car for other reasons, or you're locked into it or whatever, that's fine. But, $500 here, $500 there... you could just as well trade the car in and throw that money into the mix and come up with something that might work even better? (maybe a BMW wagon?)

Just throwing that out there. That line of thinking is exactly what got me out of spending $1,000 to do a rear disk brake conversion on my Saturn and instead shopping for my first Miata in 2001!

If you're going to mod... perhaps think of things that can be done on the cheap. What the EASIEST way to get camber on my car?

I think you've hit on the easy way, it's those lower control arms. But, instead of spending $500 on trick aluminum ones... maybe buy a set of used ones (or new ones... they appear to be cheap), and have somebody like Joe Brannon or John Lambert extend them by 1/4" or 3/8". (do the math or look and measure to find out what you need at the control arm to get the angle you want) This would cost you more like $100-150, and would be totally reversible. All you need is a good fabricator/welder.

I did the opposite on a set of Miata control arms (still have them on the shelf if anyone wants them). I had the upper control arms shortened by 1/4" to get the camber that I needed. Worked GREAT! I did the cutting. Had a friend do the welding for free.

Of course, doing the LOWER control arm on a heavier car... you want to be sure you trust your welder, and you want to put some reinforcement on it to be sure it's structurally sound. Lower control arms take more abuse than uppers. But, there's no reason a good welder with some proper steel can't make that control arm STRONGER than it was from the factory, so it's nothing to worry about.

I've learned to think a little outside the box over the years.
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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:01 pm

thanks Loren. Modded stock control arm might be be something to consider and install of finished product would be less painful than camber plates. I only have "bolt on" experience as a modder / diy'r so yeah I would need someone's expertise to execute fabrications. More research on how far I can go outward too.

The plates would allow for future part out if needed and might offer more adjustment potential should I ever wander out of S5.

Guess I should browse ebay for used part costs and think about it more.

Different car? Shopping at Toyota with my wife for her recent SUV purchase, I pointed out the Toyo 86 on the floor and mentioned that it was a popular ax weapon and she said "why didn't you buy that instead?". I love her so

Well at time of Wagon purchase, wasn't as ax gungho as I am now. If I had a do-over, shoulda woulda kept the e90 w/160k as an ax project and second car instead of trading. But I didn't.

That said, the wagon is a great DD, was dirt cheap 18k new thanks to the diesel scandal, and just checks a lot of boxes for me when I not at an event.

Down the road, who knows?



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Postby Loren » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:08 pm

mymomswagon wrote:More research on how far I can go outward too.
Trig is your friend.

Figure out how much you need the bottom of the tire to move out to get your camber angle, then extrapolate what that equates to at the lower control arm. (or, just see if you can find out how far the trick aluminum arms extend)
The plates would allow for future part out if needed and might offer more adjustment potential should I ever wander out of S5.
Your custom lower control arms would also be sellable.
Different car? Shopping at Toyota with my wife for her recent SUV purchase, I pointed out the Toyo 86 on the floor and mentioned that it was a popular ax weapon and she said "why didn't you buy that instead?". I love her so

:queen:
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Postby CaptainSquirts » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:32 pm

Your wife sounds like a keeper! Have you thought about just getting camber bolts instead of camber plates? I was thinking about getting camber plates in the future so I just got bolts instead since they could achieve the same thing for a lot less. On my stock camber bolts I am able to get -2 camber. Wasn't enough and new ones can get me up to -3.2. But if you're like me if I have my eye on something, I'll usually still get it even if it isn't the best option at the moment. Those camber plates look very purty and they even make one for my car. Since you already did the research i'll have to keep my eye out on that in the far future.
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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:03 pm

thanks. camber bolts - have searched, cannot find. Maybe there's a design issue that gets in the way.

On my search, did go to Whiteline, tho nothing noteworthy for camber. Curiosity led me to "what do they have other cars" ummmm for the Fiesta ST, bolts that add up to -1.5° for ahem..$39.

I've followed some other folks bolt on searches for camber and it's pretty much what I show.

The Vorshlag for MK7 VW is a recent development. There's always a chance some other vendor will enter the fray with something new for the control arm.

The more I read Loren's responses, the more I'm persuaded as good execution would min nvh and if resulting camber is not enough, then plates could be revisited.


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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Jun 13, 2017 2:24 pm

Loren wrote:
mymomswagon wrote:More research on how far I can go outward too.
Trig is your friend.

Figure out how much you need the bottom of the tire to move out to get your camber angle, then extrapolate what that equates to at the lower control arm. (or, just see if you can find out how far the trick aluminum arms extend)
The plates would allow for future part out if needed and might offer more adjustment potential should I ever wander out of S5.
Your custom lower control arms would also be sellable.
Different car? Shopping at Toyota with my wife for her recent SUV purchase, I pointed out the Toyo 86 on the floor and mentioned that it was a popular ax weapon and she said "why didn't you buy that instead?". I love her so

:queen:
oh crap I'm a math major. let me scribble on a white board before I respond :)

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Postby aw614 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:06 am

integrated engineering has camber plates with the spherical bushing up top. Apparently they do get noisy over time. I don't know if the mk7 will have this (I wouldnt be surprised if it they did eventually make it for the mk7), nor do I feel comfortable using this roll center adjuster...stance kids are using it for additional camber...
http://www.meganracing.com/product.asp? ... 2&catid=93

Yeah no camber bolts, the design doesnt look to allow any adjustment other than subframe straightening.

Honestly I'd run a 2nd set of tires/wheels and rotate/flip tires accordingly. The main reason why I didnt try the ground control camber plates or any other is b/c I didnt want to compromise dd duties on my gti.
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Postby mymomswagon » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:26 pm

Thank you

I've read the ie plates adjustment difficulties. Can't do GC as were noisy and high maintenance. Vorshlag would be the only possible choice.

Just posted "wtb stock control arms" on golfmk7.com.

I'm currently doing your tire suggestion. Went through a half-used set of tires w/ 500 utog all seasons in about 90 runs, so I'm motivated to add negative camber if possible, before I move up to soft compounds.



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Postby jbrannon7 » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:31 pm

mymomswagon wrote: Vorshlag would be the only possible choice.
Vorshlag is the best, also $$$.
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Postby mymomswagon » Thu Jun 15, 2017 4:31 pm

After thinking about things more, I reached out to Vorshlag for more info. 2-2.5° additional camber, sealed spring perch bearing, reasonable pricing if I change struts / spring types down the road...basically was told what I hoped to hear.

Wife said: "I haven't bought you anything for Father's Day, happy Father's Day, go buy them". So I did.

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Postby CaptainSquirts » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:35 pm

Can I touch the camber plates?
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Postby mymomswagon » Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:00 pm

CaptainSquirts wrote:Can I touch the camber plates?
haha of course

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Postby Native » Thu Jun 15, 2017 7:06 pm

Woo-hoooo!
Steven Frank
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______________
I'll get to it. Eventually...
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Postby twistedwankel » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:33 pm

NOW I know why he never brings his wife to events. :lol:

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