Affordable Choices... Federal RS-R, RS-RR or NEXEN SUR4

Post your questions or tips about wheels, tires, alignment, or anything related to preparing an autocross car here.

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Postby Kdub085 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:49 am

Loren wrote:There's just no weight back there. As long as they're wearing evenly, save the edges for the front! You could lower rear tire pressure to get them to roll over more, but if you're happy with the way the car feels, I wouldn't even think about it. Lowering rear tire pressure will make the rear grip more and also effectively soften the overall rear "suspension" (think of your tire as an adjustable spring rate). These are things you don't generally want in a FWD car, anyway.
Gotcha, makes sense! I'll keep the rear PSI the same then, I love the feel of the car with the new RSB.

I'm just gonna have to start thinking long and hard about picking up another set of dedicated auto-x rims and DD tires so I can try to stretch each set alittle longer.


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Postby CaptainSquirts » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:41 am

Kdub085 wrote:Federal RS-RR update... shy of 1,000mi with daily driving & 4 auto-x events (~22laps) all in HOT Florida....
Geez, is it normal to get that much wear on 200 tread tires from only 1000miles dd and a handful of autocross events? I was planning on going to 200 tread wear tires after my super sports gave out, but that fast of a wear kinda worries me.
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Postby Loren » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:52 am

1000 street miles does approximately zero wear unless your alignment has excessive toe.

It's the autocross runs that eat up tires. 22 runs isn't a lot, though. If you've burned through half of pair of front tires in 22 runs, it may be an indication that you're overdriving the car. Lighting up the front tires, pushing around turns, stuff like that.

The FASTiva is a lighter car, but we're managing well over 200 runs on a set of tires. Even a heavier car with proper alignment, tire pressure, and not over-driven should get 150+ runs easily. As for street miles, you pretty much get as many street miles as you happen to drive in the time it takes you to do 150 runs. Could be 4,000 miles, could be 20,000 miles. Just depends on your ratio of street miles to autocross runs.

To get 200 runs on a set of tires, you do have to rotate them about 1/4 through their life, and then often reverse-mount them at the half-way point. Most cars tend to wear the outside edge of the front tires pretty significantly, and if they have lots of camber and are street-driven, they may show a little bit more camber wear on the inside half of the tread. Reverse mounting them puts more rubber in those two places and allows you to get significantly more life out of the tire.
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Postby twistedwankel » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:00 pm

CaptainSquirts wrote:
Kdub085 wrote:Federal RS-RR update... shy of 1,000mi with daily driving & 4 auto-x events (~22laps) all in HOT Florida....
Geez, is it normal to get that much wear on 200 tread tires from only 1000miles dd and a handful of autocross events? I was planning on going to 200 tread wear tires after my super sports gave out, but that fast of a wear kinda worries me.
Not to worry. I never get over 1-2000 miles of highway on any set of autocross tires on either RWD 3150lb car. LIKE Loren just wrote hwy miles are moot wear. BUT I assume to normally get about 80-100 runs even tho' I cannot rotate tires front to back on one car.

I started keeping track of how many runs/miles I get on tires two years ago when tires got expensive. BFG Rivals, Toyo, Hankook all met or exceeded my expectations. Hankooks heat cycled out at 3/32" stones but would not die. So far the RE71's are not wearing well but stick best of all by a "slim margin"? Not a staggering "margin" from tires costing 1/2-1/3 more $$ than the others. The best bang for the buck this year sounds like the Nexen's. May try them next as are actually available in my proper stagger sizes and they came up with a new design specifically for autocross (not drifting) this Feb release?? Michelin developed a secret new Pilot SS2 for F1 which is supposed to be insane and available for performance cars too. So secret they refuse to patent the design.

I think the absolute BEST W speed rated all around tire for quiet highway, rain and autocross sourced locally was the 240q Toyo Proxes T1 Sport. 9/10's performance of the RE71's I am presently running on the Vette. I took them off at the wear bars but they never stopped gripping. $600 a set for my Vette + installation and tax.
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Postby Kdub085 » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:31 pm

Loren wrote: If you've burned through half of pair of front tires in 22 runs, it may be an indication that you're overdriving the car. Lighting up the front tires, pushing around turns, stuff like that.
Guilty on all counts sir! I'd like to think that I'm beginning to learn how to properly drive my car in a Autocross format. So...hopefully I can make the rears last a little longer in the front.


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Postby Evil MS3 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:17 am

Yeah, that seems like quite a bit of wear for so little mileage. I've been running my Federal RS-R tires (not daily) for about a year and a half now. They've got two trips to the Tail of the Dragon on them plus a little extra (about 5k miles) and probably 10+ autox events and I'm just now contemplating replacing them (and I think I'm over driving them on the course too). Hopefully you're able to get the rears to last a bit longer.
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Postby ImpostorDan » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:26 pm

Thanks for reminding me to flip the nexens before the enduro...

p.s. I killed my kumhos in 51 runs having too much fun.
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Postby jmdoc66 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:34 pm

Good to know these are noisy. I need to start to look into tires. My ST has 36K miles on the F1s and I may have to get a new set before the rainy season.
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Postby Kdub085 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:04 pm

Evil MS3 wrote:Yeah, that seems like quite a bit of wear for so little mileage. I've been running my Federal RS-R tires (not daily) for about a year and a half now. They've got two trips to the Tail of the Dragon on them plus a little extra (about 5k miles) and probably 10+ autox events and I'm just now contemplating replacing them (and I think I'm over driving them on the course too). Hopefully you're able to get the rears to last a bit longer.
Yeah, I really didn't think they would wear out so quick either, even tho I was kinda over driving them the first couple events.

Do you think I should bump up or down the PSI in the fronts to help thread life? I'm running them at 38-40 right now. As it's sits right now, they are not rolling over.


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Postby Evil MS3 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:06 pm

Kdub085 wrote:
Evil MS3 wrote:Yeah, that seems like quite a bit of wear for so little mileage. I've been running my Federal RS-R tires (not daily) for about a year and a half now. They've got two trips to the Tail of the Dragon on them plus a little extra (about 5k miles) and probably 10+ autox events and I'm just now contemplating replacing them (and I think I'm over driving them on the course too). Hopefully you're able to get the rears to last a bit longer.
Yeah, I really didn't think they would wear out so quick either, even tho I was kinda over driving them the first couple events.

Do you think I should bump up or down the PSI in the fronts to help thread life? I'm running them at 38-40 right now. As it's sits right now, they are not rolling over.


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That's about the same range I keep them as well.
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Postby mymomswagon » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:38 pm

Edit: I'll ask folks in person thanks
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Postby Loren » Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:04 pm

Bill, dammit... I started answering your question many hours ago. Didn't finish, had to come back to it. Now I'm done and you've edited out your question(s). I'm still gonna post my answers!

Go with what you feel, Bill. You're on your "training tires". Do you feel like you've mastered them? Are you dancing with them right on the edge of all that they have to offer? Or close enough to that? If so, then, yeah... move on up!

How far up you move depends on your budget and on how competitive you are. The big dog RE-71's for instance... nothing else touches them, but they're expensive and they wear out really fast. If you don't "need" that competitive edge, you can get "almost as much tire" for less money and/or in a compound that will last significantly longer. (that's what this thread is about)

Load range equates to a maximum tire load. Look it up. Figure 3000 pound car, 60% front bias, your heaviest corner should be about 900 pounds. Your 91 load index is rated to 1356, which gives you some reserve capacity to carry heavy things (or people) in your car. That's all about sustained load carrying capacity, not peak loads as you might see when a tire is loaded in a bump or when cornering. You probably don't want a load rating that is a LOT less than the factory spec, but unless you're fully loading the back of your wagon with heavy stuff regularly, you could probably get away with a LITTLE less without issue.

The S in your "91S" is the speed rating. That has more to do with how hot tire will get after driving at sustained high speed. We're not too worried about that for autocross, but a higher speed rating usually also equates to stiffer sidewalls, and a more "performance" oriented tire. (if the sidewalls flex too much, they generate heat at speed and eventually blow out... so softer sidewall tires will have a lower speed rating)

You don't "need" to upgrade anything else. You've got a fairly new car, it can cope with whatever tire you throw at it. A grippier and more responsive tire will make it possible for you to "toss" the car harder, and with soft stock springs and shocks, you'll blow through the suspension travel quicker and get onto the bump stops. But, you should already be doing that even with lesser tires. You're driving on the bump stops with any modern car in an autocross.

What you might consider upgrading first is the shocks, and adding a rear swaybar. But, I'd do tires and alignment first.

Then you need to consider what class you want to play in. Personally, I'd try to stay in S5 as long as you can. Run those 195's, and do Stock-approved suspension mods. (which, for FAST, means pretty much anything that doesn't change the springs or ride height)

But, if you want to do more than that, you could move to M4... and spend more money on more suspension mods and wider wheels and tires.

Oh, and read this: http://drivefast.org/novice-tips/suspension-tips/
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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Feb 28, 2017 10:32 am

Thanks Loren, and sorry about the posting confusion

Driver-wise I won't be cheating myself by getting more seat time and wear out of my current set. I feel like I'm improving and learning the car but still have at least one area of cluelessness (slaloms). Being noob, some things are harder to interpret. example, my best time at the endurocross felt uncomfortable, sloppy and over-driving (but no stuck-in -mud slides :) ).

Good to know my car could likely handle a future upgrade as is, guess I'll eventually do it and decide from there what makes sense wrt how aggressive a compound. Get some seat time with them and then, if I should upgrade shocks. That suspension link was good and I can relate to some of it having over-modded my previous car's suspension.

The load rating thing, yeah just wasn't sure if autocross stress dictated any additional considerations. I've run 2 lower on a different car without problem. Some of these smaller diameter sizes dip the number a bit, as low as 82 vs 91 factory spec. If my future tires go this way, they'll be autox only and won't be hauling much other than the driver at the event.
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Postby Bellissimo » Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:40 pm

Hello, all!
This is my 1st post on this forum. I'm not sure how much I will be able to contribute as I am not a resident anywhere near you guys (and gals), but the sport of Auto-x is something I think I will be trying out for pretty much the first time this upcoming summer, and I happened by this forum as a result. I live in Ann Arbor, MI and have a fairly heavily modified 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth. I have owned sporty, smaller cars many years ago (Honda CRX, Toyota MR2) and a couple sport bikes, though this has been the first vehicle I have wrenched on and modified myself - and it's been very rewarding!

I ran one track day that actually came included in the purchase of my Fiat and did some auto-x events as well as a few track laps; fun stuff indeed! I loved having the opportunity to drive my particular model of car at it's limits without worrying I would mess my own up in the process! (we used Fiat supplied Abarths for the day). This site and your group in particular seem VERY active, engaged and supportive - I am hopeful that I can find a similar situation where I am at for sure.

What is making me post up in this thread as a starting point is that I ordered and will be receiving soon, my own set of Federal RS-RRs. From my research on our Fiat forum and online reviews, these seem like excellent tires for the money. I had a set of Dunlop Direzza's previously as my warm weather tires, but at literally twice the price, I just HAD to give the Federals a try. I had looked at Falken Azenis as well, though they would have run approx. $150 more than the RS-RRs. I am taking a trip to the Dragon in about a month (very much hoping for good weather!) to test them out.

I did want to throw out an immense tip of the cap to Loren that I see is a site admin, but more than that an extremely patient, knowledgable and sincere leader here. In the literally2-3 days that I have been lightly poking around these threads, he has offered up some fantastic advice and support to dozens of folks asking questions and looking to learn/understand more about their cars and the sport of auto crossing in general. I will continue to read this forum for his insight if nothing else - great work sir!

Thanks for having me, and look for me to ask what I'm sure will be more "newbie" driven questions as the Summer wears on!

Cheers,
Kev
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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:31 pm

Any love / hate for yoko ad08 R?
on closeout at tirerack, thinking of pairing them with new wheels (also on closeout).

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Postby Loren » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:03 pm

A long, long, long, long time ago, the Yokohama A008 was one of the earliest "autocross tires" of the 80's.

That likely has nothing at all to do with this tire, other than the fact that "8" and "08" monikers that you often see in Yoko tire designations have a strong history.

I'm sure these tires are fine. Probably on par with something like the Dunlop Star Specs, likely not quite up there with the RE-71 or the Hankook RS-4. For the price, they should kick ass... but... sometimes "closeout" tires are rather old. TR stores all of their tires in climate-controlled warehouses, so it's usually not a huge deal. But, they might be 3 years old. And sometimes that has an effect. Might be worth inquiring with the Tire Rack about that. "What is the date code?" "I'm buying them to autocross on, what if I get them, mount them up, and they've obviously 'gone off' and aren't grippy?" See what they say.

You won't find a lot of reference on these for autocross use because SCCA's "street tire" limit is 200. So, the majority of serious street tire autocrossers aren't going to have bothered with them.
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Postby mymomswagon » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:28 pm

Loren wrote:A long, long, long, long time ago, the Yokohama A008 was one of the earliest "autocross tires" of the 80's.

That likely has nothing at all to do with this tire, other than the fact that "8" and "08" monikers that you often see in Yoko tire designations have a strong history.

I'm sure these tires are fine. Probably on par with something like the Dunlop Star Specs, likely not quite up there with the RE-71 or the Hankook RS-4. For the price, they should kick ass... but... sometimes "closeout" tires are rather old. TR stores all of their tires in climate-controlled warehouses, so it's usually not a huge deal. But, they might be 3 years old. And sometimes that has an effect. Might be worth inquiring with the Tire Rack about that. "What is the date code?" "I'm buying them to autocross on, what if I get them, mount them up, and they've obviously 'gone off' and aren't grippy?" See what they say.

You won't find a lot of reference on these for autocross use because SCCA's "street tire" limit is 200. So, the majority of serious street tire autocrossers aren't going to have bothered with them.
thanks Loren, good info and I'll ask them about the age.
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Postby twistedwankel » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:02 pm

You can get them shaved to 6/32" for $100. Fresh rubber with no squirm so they'll last a lot longer too.
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Postby RedBRZ80 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:22 am

To the OP : I got 150 runs out of a set of RE71s on the pig heavy RS last year. So as Loren said, driving style is a top reason why tires go away. Especially on a heavy FWD car. Rotate often. Work on slow in fast out, smooth out the inputs.


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Postby Loren » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:10 am

Worthy of note:

If you're doing 2 FAST events per month with two drivers... you're fighting for 6 months of tire life.

4 runs at an Open x 2 x 6
8 runs at a Classic x 2 x 6

That's getting pretty close to 150 runs. Remember to rotate them at about 1/4 life, and then FLIP them at 1/2 life (unless the wear is so even that you don't need to). You should be able to get 150+ runs out of most tires as long as your alignment isn't goofy, and you're not severely overdriving them.
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